As a leading voice in climate policy, Ayana Elizabeth Johnson has dedicated her career to protecting and restoring the natural world—particularly our oceans. As the co-founder of Urban Ocean Lab, a think tank focused on solutions for coastal cities, and the author of What If We Get It Right?, her latest book on reimagining climate communication, she has championed pragmatic, actionable strategies for addressing the climate crisis.
In this conversation, she delves into the biggest challenges facing the movement today, the role corporations must play in environmental action—particularly now, and how shifting the climate narrative can inspire real, lasting change.
This interview has been edited for length and clarity.
Crouse: When did you first realize that environmental advocacy would be central to your career?
Johnson: I never really thought about a career in a formal sense. When I thought about what I wanted to be when I grew up, it was more like, “What impact do I want to have?” And one of the things I cared so much about, even as a little kid, was nature. I wanted to help protect and restore it.
What would you say are the most powerful forces currently shaping the climate movement?
In just the first month, we’ve already seen [Trump] roll back decades of progress—not just from the last administration, but from the past several decades. What’s especially concerning is that other countries are now questioning their own commitments, thinking, “If the U.S. isn’t taking this seriously, why should we?”
It’s one thing for us to fail as leaders and global citizens. It’s another to make others feel like they don’t have to do their part anymore.
Are there specific examples you’re thinking of?
I didn’t think leaving the Paris Agreement would have much of a ripple effect because it didn’t last time. But now, there’s so much news I can’t keep track of it all.
We’ve heard about New Zealand walking back its climate commitments. And we’ve seen corporations doing the same—almost all the big tech companies have said, “Just kidding, we’re not going to meet our climate goals.” Apple is unique in sticking to their climate [and DEI] committments.
We’re also seeing fossil fuel corporations abandon their already weak commitments to expanding renewable energy. Now that “Drill, Baby, Drill” is the official GOP platform, they’re dialing all that back. Those are enormous and deeply troubling trends. It’s going to take a lot to bring us back from the brink. Everything gets harder with those kinds of headwinds.
Are you still reeling from the impact the Trump administration is having, or have you hit the ground running?
Both. Sometimes, you get a news flash and think, “This too?”
One example is the day-one executive orders declaring a national energy emergency—when, to be clear, there is no energy emergency. The U.S. is the largest producer of oil and gas in history. No one in America is running out of electricity.
We have more solar and wind energy than ever before, yet declaring an energy emergency allows the administration to bypass environmental restrictions and open more land for oil and gas drilling. That executive order even defined energy resources in a way that excluded solar and wind. Meanwhile, already-approved projects—solar installations, support for farmers transitioning to clean energy, public transportation investments—are being stalled. These aren’t just climate policies; they’re practical, beneficial steps for society.
What’s the strategy?
It’s difficult to think about strategy right now, and much of this will be litigated in court. I’m grateful for organizations like Earthjustice, which is doing incredible work ensuring these actions are legal—or challenging them when they aren’t. They’ve already started filing lawsuits, including against attempts to expand offshore oil and gas drilling.
That said, my focus is on other levels of government. My policy think tank, Urban Ocean Lab, which I founded during the first Trump administration, focuses on city governments. About 15 to 20% of Americans live in coastal cities, and since I work on ocean climate policy, that’s where I look for solutions.
City governments—mayors’ offices, city councils—have significant power to act. Cities produce a huge share of greenhouse gas emissions, but they also have the tools to reduce them. They can update building and zoning codes, invest in public transit, expand municipal composting, and build bike lanes. They can also restore and protect coastal ecosystems, which help buffer climate impacts and absorb carbon.
For me, the priority is focusing on actionable solutions. Fortunately, I already had this organization in place, so I’m doubling down on what we can do now.
What responsibility do you think the private sector—especially companies outside the environmental space—has in pushing back against these challenges?
My very simple reaction to that is: We all live here.
Of course, we all have a responsibility. That responsibility to be a good citizen of planet Earth shouldn’t change just because you work in a corporation.
One theme that came up repeatedly during interviews for my book What If We Get It Right? was how shareholder capitalism and the drive to maximize quarterly earnings pose a significant threat to ecosystems and the climate. By prioritizing short-term gains, people inevitably make poor long-term decisions. I didn’t expect this to be a recurring topic in conversations with lawyers, community organizers, tech professionals, and farmers—but it kept coming up.
What I wish corporations would do more of is tell the full story—not just their commitments or accomplishments, but the process. It would send such a strong message if Fortune 100 companies said, “Okay, we set this goal. It’s going to be really hard. Here’s how we think we’ll get there. We’re not sure about this part yet.”
Are there examples of companies standing firm in their climate commitments that give you hope for corporate sentiment?
I’ve been watching to see how corporations are showing up in this moment, and I’ve generally been deeply disappointed. There’s not a lot of backbone.
Would you hold up Apple and Patagonia as examples of companies with backbone?
Absolutely. Just this week, Patagonia’s CEO published an op-ed in TIME stating that our public lands should not be for sale—something the Trump administration is exploring. [Johnson serves on the board of directors for Patagonia]. Apple has reaffirmed its commitment to diversity, equality, and its climate goals.
But the fact that I can only point to two large companies making these kinds of waves says a lot.
Is the current doom-and-gloom messaging around climate too tired to be effective?
Different messages work for different people—there isn’t one right way to communicate about climate. Some people are like, “Whoa, that’s how bad this is. Okay, I’m in.” Others feel overwhelmed and check out.
There’s been a lot of debate about fear versus hope in climate communication. I step outside that and focus on being practical: What do we want to make? What future do we want to create? What’s our role in shaping it?
We already have the solutions. The only question is how quickly we can implement them. Yes, it’s harder when we have a government that clearly doesn’t give a shit. But that doesn’t mean we can’t make the world slightly better than it would have been if we hadn’t tried at all.
I see it as: What is our role in human history? How will future generations remember what we did? Will we be proud of our choices?
